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what happens when they over-saturate the market with cookie cutter controllers?

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  • May 16, 2012 at 3:35 pm #1004485
    VinnyBlanc
    Participant

    “Ask yourself “how often have I seen a digital clock being displayed prominently on a wall?” We have digital clocks, and people use and like them, but they don’t see them in the same light as a clock with moving hands. Somehow, this same sentiment and feeling is influencing how people feel about midi controllers and DJing with them.” ~Spektakx

    This is Dope, but I diasgree that midi controllers wills Fail…

    May 16, 2012 at 3:38 pm #1004486
    VinnyBlanc
    Participant

    “Ask yourself “how often have I seen a digital clock being displayed prominently on a wall?” We have digital clocks, and people use and like them, but they don’t see them in the same light as a clock with moving hands. Somehow, this same sentiment and feeling is influencing how people feel about midi controllers and DJing with them.” ~Spektakx

    This is Dope, but I diasgree that midi controllers will Fail…

    May 16, 2012 at 4:25 pm #1004497
    spektakx
    Member

    VinnyBlanc, post: 20333, member: 737 wrote: “Ask yourself “how often have I seen a digital clock being displayed prominently on a wall?” We have digital clocks, and people use and like them, but they don’t see them in the same light as a clock with moving hands. Somehow, this same sentiment and feeling is influencing how people feel about midi controllers and DJing with them.” ~Spektakx

    This is Dope, but I diasgree that midi controllers wills Fail…

    Thank you,
    of course, I’m generalizing about the “failure” of midi. To what extent, and how the failure will manifest itself remains to be see. I am certain that, at some point, “Units not selling” will force everyone in the production pipeline to massively rethink their strategies, both on design and implementation.
    One recent example of units not selling is the NI s2. This is the perfect instance of what I’m talking about. The S4 sold 15000 units, great right, and I don’t know how many S2s sold(me talking about stuff like this in a public forum has scraed so many people, that I’m no longer on the inside) What we do know is this. They re-priced the S2. So we know that they were not selling as hoped for or expected. This isn’t the only time this has happened. The Numark V7s are another example.
    My assertion is that fear and suspicion, on the part of the buyer, not lack of money, was/is the driving force behind the failure of these products. Not fear, from a sense of the device not working properly, so much; but instead the fear the we were being sold something else that wouldn’t fully live up to our expectations “workflow-wise”, and that the same manufacturer would only be coming back to us months later, asking us to buy their latest and greatest “upgraded” system.

    May 16, 2012 at 4:42 pm #1004500
    VinnyBlanc
    Participant

    Ultimately, its the end-user who benefits. The Denon MC3000 and NI S2 compete…if one manufacturer drops the price $100 the competitor follows suite, because as you said there really isnt that much differentiation between controllers to justify the price difference.

    Oh wait vestax is dropping the VCI-380 and the Twitch is no longer the only itch controller with SLICE functionatlity = Novation just dropped the price of the Twitch $100 and so on.

    The only problem is there is TOO much redundancy like in the automotive industry. A pontiac VIBE and a toyota MATRIX were the same damn vehicle and endless other examples. Let’s see if midi controllers follow suit with the automobile industry.

    You have to keep in mind that DJing is the “new cool hot thing” right now and the user base is exploding I feel. Just look at every other Sprint/Coca cola etc commercial…people at a party drinking and dancing with a DJ (often times on Midi controllers now). It makes it very appealing to a novice to be able to drop $500 on a decent controller and get up and running with an all in one unit compared to investing in CDJs/TT and a mixer …etc.

    –

    May 16, 2012 at 5:30 pm #1004501
    Chris Collins
    Member

    It’s rare that my day job applies to these forums, but:

    “Hi, I work in the automotive industry”.

    The Vibe/Matrix example is probably the most interesting, and the least relevant 🙂

    Toyota and General Motors actually had a joint operation (NUMMI) at one point, so a lot of the engineering was shared between the two vehicles. The drivetrains were shared, but a lot of the finishing and interiors were quite different. This was actually a big step to both companies learning from each other to come out a head (Unfortunately, GM didn’t learn as much as Toyota, which is one of the reasons why Vibes are dying on the road and Matrix (Matrices?) are still holding their value).

    If Serato and NI partnered up for a controller project that could run Traktor /or/ ITCH natively, then a good comparison would be the Vibe/Matrix 🙂

    However, the core redundancies are within larger companies themselves. Back a LONG time ago when the United States was worried about domestic anti-trust monopolies in the automotive industry (funny how things have changed), congress at the time mandated that once a car company became big enough, it had to segment itself into different brands (GM -> Chevy, Buick, Caddy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Ford -> Mercury, Lincoln, Chrysler -> Dodge, Plymouth). A lot of these vehicles were just re-badges of existing products. The “redundancy” benefits the consumer, as it is cheaper to manufacture one million of something (per piece) than it does to manufacture one hundred thousand.

    MIDI controllers becoming copies of each other is frankly the desired end-state of the controller economy. What really is the difference between an NI S4 and Numark NS6? Functionally, they perform the same tasks (4 deck MIDI controller with almost the same amount of controls) but have small differences (strip search on NS6, dedicated filter knobs on the S4 if I remember correctly, to name a few). Those exclusive features can drive up price because you can pair demand with that exclusivity.

    Let’s also bring up the 4-Trak vs NS6. These controllers do not compete against each other (one runs Traktor, the other runs ITCH), so Numark has to project different sales forecasts for each product, let their hardware supplies be aware of the various demands and run with it. For all intents and purposes, they are different controllers.

    Imagine, however, that the 4-Trak didn’t need to exist and you could flash the firmware of an NS6 to make it run exactly like a 4-Trak (let’s ignore all the Traktor NS6 mappings for obvious reasons). Now, all the hardware differences between the two are eliminated, so instead of having a supplier deliver 2 slightly different products to Numark (such as the paint details on the casings of each unit), they now only supply the one casing at more units per year. It becomes cheaper for them, Numark, and ultimately the consumer.

    When I go shopping for laundry detergent, I could get Tide, or Bounce (change the brands to suit your local market). I personally prefer Tide, and will buy Tide if all else is equal. If Bounce is on sale, well, screw Tide. They are basically the same anyway.

    That’s what we should want! If the only difference between MIDI controllers was the sticker on the front, the consumers win. You can get the same functionality from any brand, but you can still be the A&H guy, or the Denon guy if you really wanted to. Quality, brand loyalty and customer service is still important, but you have a lot more mobility as a consumer to move to a competitor.

    Well, that turn into more of a rant than I wanted it to be! One last thing, however:

    Vinny, can you be a little more specific as to why you think “TOO much redundancy” is not only present in the DJ hardware market and why it’s a problem?

    May 17, 2012 at 4:21 am #1004528
    synthet1c
    Member

    hate to be the stinky hippy in the conversation but redundancy in any industry is ultimately bad for earth sustainability. if thing’s were made to last and not to be upgraded we wouldn’t be constantly discarding usefull resources (plastics and metals) because a predetermined weakspot has given way or somthing prettier has been released.

    I’m off to have a shower to get the hippy out of me.

    May 17, 2012 at 5:46 am #1004542
    spektakx
    Member

    @Chris
    thanks for the interesting perspective. gave me some things to think about.
    ya know, if only the redundancy was things we all wanted, like a really nice crossfader(or any other control that frequent gets requested) then I suppose it would be good. The problem is that redundancy seems to fall into the category of things we “don’t want” like cheap faders, and the rubber buttons that lean from side to side and take way to much force to press. It actually goes deeper than that, because of this simple fact, we all became DJs to express our own “Unique” selves through how “we” personally hear the music. We buy/bought this gear and software with the hope of re-mixing on the fly and adding our own unique creativity and sensibilty to the mix. It’s going to be awfully difficult to stand out at the car show, if we all driving vibes and matrices. Maybe it’s so burried beneath the thoughts of all the $ we spend on this stuff, that it’s only a subconscious thing, but on some level we’re all starting to feel that there is very little “uniqueness” and therefore little creativity in what we’re doing. i think the monotony is even more evident in turntablism culture; it’s hyperbolic at this point.

    May 19, 2012 at 12:13 pm #1004658
    Phil Morse
    Keymaster

    This is an interesting debate. One thing to throw in is that unlike cars and computers, controllers are made for musicians to create on – and anything that gives a creative edge is likely to get traction, because if someone’s kit can do something that someone else’s can’t, well, that might just mean then end up being able to make sounds that the next person can’t too.

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