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  • #2126551
    DJ Vintage
    Moderator

    I think he answered that one rather explicitely. My takeaway from his answer was that that is a nearly impossible challenge, especially with an actually company that has the same name (and a Chrome+ experiment that seems to be generating some traffic too).

    Personally I think you either a) do a lot of this research BEFORE committing to a name or b) if you have a name you want to keep, you deal with the reality of more persons/companies/initiatives already using that same name and having a significant headstart that might possibly not be overcome.

    #2126601

    Vintage pretty much got it. I found out that there was a company going by the name Sentri, but I’m still going to stick with it. For offline purposes, I simply go by Sentri, but I added the DJ in front of it for online so that way there is no confusion between myself and other entities of the same name.

    Of course, I have no followers ATM as I’ve never had a gig and just started recently. I am in the process of creating a web page, myself though and I intend to it to be the central hub for my music and everything.

    #2126781
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    There was a company called Hardwell that existed even before the dude. But he was able to overtake the company and dominate the web. If he can do it, so can I. There’s a way to do anything and everything. All I need are a few fingers pointing me in the direction I need to go, how I handle the path is up to me.

    Make no mistake, I CAN and I WILL do it. No matter how hard it seems.

    To the company if they’re reading this: I mean no offence to you guys, I only wish my own success.

    #2127411
    ScottoRobotto
    Participant

    If you absolutely want to be at the top of the search results page, here is how you do it. You need to have a professional web developer do your website, assume at least $1000 for a robust CMS based website. You’ll want to pay the developer every month to continue optimizing the website every month because trends change and other people are working against you to take the top spots as well. I would figure about 2-3 hours at least, the last place I worked at charged $80/hr for SEO.

    You will need to continuously generate content every month, an article every few days at least if not more often. It doesn’t have to be long, even a page or two will do but it needs to be consistent. If you have a CMS website you can set publication dates so you can write the articles ahead of time and publish on schedule. Alternatively you can pay a developer to generate content for you or use what is called user-generated content. This website itself is an example of how to make it work for you.

    You need quality links to your website which means you need other people to write articles about you or link to you. This could happen completely organically if you were to break out(But if that happened you wouldn’t need to work on SEO) or you need to work really hard promoting yourself online and offline so people will promote you online.

    You also need to be active on social media both for organic growth and to improve your search results.

    To put it bluntly, if you aren’t actively working to promote your business at least 20 hours a week like someone is paying YOU to promote THEM, it isn’t enough.

    Alternatively you could pay Google for ad placement so you appear at the very top above the normal results. This gets expensive very quickly. Depending on the search terms you want placement on they could charge you anywhere from fractions of pennies to $0.50 per view(Not per click, per VIEW). If you put $50 in your account at $0.04 a view then after 1250 views they will take your ad down and it won’t show until you add more money to your account. Click-thru conversion rates for ads are about 0.5% so you might get 6 people to check out for page, about $8.33 per person. Personally, I think you might get better results buying someone a beer at a bar.

    #2127581
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    Mmm.. Not very encouraging. Paying is not an option as I don’t earn money myself. And the thing is: I don’t think I’ll need to do the maintenance work you say. All I need is to get to the top once, stay there till I can get signed to a record label, and voila! They promote my music, and in turn promote me. Job done!

    That’s broadly what I’m aiming to do. Besides, once I get decent enough, my fans and followers will act as online promoting agents. And then I’ll just let my music do the thing: For me ultimately its the music that matters and not the online presence, if your music is decent, then your online presence will come to you as a bonus.

    #2127711
    DJ Vintage
    Moderator

    I can see the desire and the drive you have to make it to where you believe you belong. And that is good, because without it, your chances of reaching that (or any other serious goal for that matter) are slim to none.

    Far be it from me to say you can or can’t and will or won’t. I wish everyone the best for themselves, so more power to you if you make it happen. We’ll be able to say “we knew him back when …” 😀

    However, I do think there are a few assumptions you are making that might need a reality check:

    1) If you make it to the top once and stay there for a while, you will be signed to a label. I doubt that is the way the record industry works these days. Also, it would involve people from a label to type in Tonecraft into Google and find your listing at the top of the page. Then what? That tells them absolutely nothing. And you just had Scott, who seems extremely knowledgeable on the subject (and willing to write walls of text in your and other readers interest – kudos, Scott!) that unless you are prepared to make the commitment of ridiculous (near full-time) hours put into social media, it’s not gonna happen. And your response: “I don’t think I need to do the maintenance work …”. That is pretty dismissive coming from the layman towards the expert, but that is just my opinion of course.

    2) Letting your music do your thing. If there is one thing I have learned in over 37 years of DJ-ing, Live Sound Engineering and studio work, NO WAY does JUST your music make anything happen for you. The world is full of people who are gifted, talented, hard-working musicians, producers, DJs and still only a VERY SMALL percentage makes it to the big leagues.
    Not because they worked harder, or practiced more, not even because they were more talented. It is because they were better at making contacts, establishing relationships, putting themselves out there, marketing themselves (which btw involves a LOT more than just getting to the top of the Google results page). Social media play a big role there these days and can’t be discounted. That’s how they are effectively creating that “luck” that succesful people seem to have. Like being at the “right place at the right time”. You know why they were there? Because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time 1000 times before, but that didn’t stop them from going places. Personally I think the world’s best producer can sit in his home studio and produce a zillion tracks in his lifetime, post them on social media and soundcloud and NEVER be discovered.

    3) The only valuable Google result, imho, is when someone types in “most promising EDM producer (or any other label you want to give yourself) and YOUR name turns up on top then. In my case (if I had that ambition, which I don’t) it would be if someone in Holland where I live would type in “wedding DJ” and DJ Vintage would show up at the top of the list. That would be worth something. Somebody typing in DJ Vintage? Probably someone looking for me and wanting to find my contact details or website. Since they clearly knew to be looking for me specifically, what extra benefit does it give me if I am at the top, middle or bottom of the first page?

    #2127971
    ScottoRobotto
    Participant

    I don’t have experience with music labels personally but I do have some understanding of how they operate. Most signed artists have a rude surprise once they figure out that the game is rigged badly against them. First off, the label doesn’t promote your music for free; they advance you the money to pay THEM to promote your music.

    Basically when you sign on to a label they front the money for promotion, publication, travel, etc. along with an advance sum for future sales so you can buy houses, fancy cars or whatever. However, you still owe the for the ENTIRE bill. You have no say on how the money is spent or on what rates they are charging you for the services. Basically they have a company charge card with your name on the bill. The saving grace is that they can’t get back money if you don’t earn anything so they will actually promote you. However, the money you make from royalties goes into paying them back before you ever see a dime. An A-lister like Katy Perry gets a higher percentage royalty, as high as 5%. A relative unknown would likely see less then 1%. If the label spends $2 million on promotion, booking venues, recording costs, travel and accommodations, etc then you need over $200 million in sales just to break even. Even if you signed on with a tiny label company that only spent $50,000, you would still need $5 million in sales to get off the hook with them. At $15 for a digital release, you would need to sell over 330,000 units.

    Most artists are lucky to break even with their labels, they have to take advantage of the publicity and go on tour because concert ticket sales is where they make their money. The other ways they make money are commercials and celebrity endorsements mostly in Japan although Korea and China are getting kind of big for it these days. Most times these deals are brokered by agents who get a percentage of everything their clients make including that 1% from the label (This, of course happens BEFORE the money gets applied to paying the label back.)

    Basically, in order to make money or at least not die broke you can’t just be a success. You need to be an overwhelming, blowout success. From the labels point of view the best thing they can do is just keep you from paying back the initial nut, even when you come up “short” they are still swimming in money because they are selling you services at a markup that makes hotel room service look thrifty. As long as you owe them they basically have you in indentured servitude until you’re no longer profitable and they cut you loose. They won’t promote you anymore but you’ll still owe them for the outstanding balance.

    #2128011
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    Hey all!

    I haven’t read your post Scott, I’ve only read the one by Vintage so I’ll answer him before I’m off for school.

    A record label is an organization which take your music and distribute it throughout the stores. And of course, take some of the profits [actually MOST of the profits]. For them to earn more, they’ll be the one who’ll ensure that people buy my music. And that’s what my objective is.

    Depending on the label, you can have contracts like 20%-80% [where the label takes 80% or so]. The end result being that it is them who’ll take up the headache of promotion of your music.

    As for your SEO idea [searching for “best edm DJ”], I assume that the first result will be the DJ Mag top 100 poll. I’m not sure, and correct me if I’m wrong but I doubt anyone will be able to occupy that space.

    #2128061
    DJ Vintage
    Moderator

    Hi Tone,

    It wasn’t so much a search idea, as it was an example of the kind of search where your being at the top of list would actually be of value, rather than being at the top of the list for the “Tonecraft” query.

    One line struck me as interesting, “the headache of promotion of your music”. I think that promotion of your music (and yourself as performing artist) is exactly what I ment is what the succesful guys (and gals) do better than the rest of the pack.

    Armin, Tiesto, Hardwell, Guetta and such didn’t get famous because a label promoted their music, they got famous because THEY relentlessly promoted themselves/their music.

    The general thought here being that you love what you do so much that you can’t help but wanting to share it with the world. They didn’t just sit in their rooms creating tracks, but they worked hard to make sure they were able to be out there playing so they could play it for their audiences, have their work heard. And if the world likes what you do, they will eventually pick up on it.

    So, if you feel it is a “headache to promote” yourself and your own music, you might just lack the right attitude to get where you apparently so desperately want to be. It’s time to enjoy the journey, my friend and stop worrying about the destination so much.

    Having goals is good, it helps you focus and when decision time comes around, goals help you answer the question “which choice will help me get closer to my goal”. Goals also help you keep going when the going gets rough. Keeps you producing when you don’t totally feel hot and it helps you do (and enjoy) things you might think are a necessary evil, like promotion. But if the goal becomes more important than the journey, it becomes a lot harder to reach those goals.

    #2128081
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    The general thought here being that you love what you do so much that you can’t help but wanting to share it with the world. They didn’t just sit in their rooms creating tracks, but they worked hard to make sure they were able to be out there playing so they could play it for their audiences, have their work heard. And if the world likes what you do, they will eventually pick up on it.

    I want to know what “hard work” they did.

    #2128091
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    Well, I just read your post Scott. But I’m not sure how I can entirely relate to it.


    @DJ
    Vintage: I know some people who made great music and then promoted it and then got so involved in promotion that they stopped making music completely, and turned into social media freaks. It’s not a headache, but it’s not what I want to dedicate most of my time also. I just want to be a fair distance away from it and more towards the music.

    And as for promotion, what I want to know is: What exactly is the “hard work” they did. Obviously they didn’t just make music and wait for it be heard, as you say. But I don’t want to be the guy who goes around Youtube and spams other videos either.

    #2128101
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    I’ve seen loads of new producers commenting: “Hey, nice track! check out mine too and subscribe! : http://www.somestupidstuff.com/iamaspammer

    #2128111
    ScottoRobotto
    Participant

    Relate to it? It is a summary of what happens when an artist signs with a label. If you have an anecdote from someone who had a different experience from their label I would love to hear it, but otherwise what do you think would happen if a label picked you up and what is that belief based on? I think you have a romanticized view of the music industry, labels are out to sell music to make as much money as they possibly can while paying artists as little as they possibly can. What makes you think they wouldn’t try to catch an artist both coming and going?

    As for what promotion is, as I mentioned promotion is basically selling yourself at every opportunity to do so. I believe it was Dale Earnhardt Jr. speaking about racecar drivers who said, “When the sponsors are watching, we are all whores.”

    #2128151
    DJ Vintage
    Moderator

    I think you are way too hooked into the whole social media/online thing. I am not saying that it isn’t useful, because it is. Have Facebook, Twitter, be active with things that are valuable for your followers (seriously nobody wants to know that you had coffee on the deck of your tree hut, but they WILL want to hear something you found that you think might be of interest to them or where they can get your latest track for free).

    But the real deal is playing out and meeting real people in real life. You have to be out there every moment you are not producing talking to people, building a network, having people that will come watch you play because that following will help you get gigs. At gigs get to know everyone, leave your card, mixtape, whatever. Stay in touch with people, even when they can’t help you (at that moment). Generally be a nice guy that lingers in the back of their mind.

    But be sure that it is “work” in the sense that it requires a conscious effort and some serious time. I am not saying do less producing, but definitely do more PR! And try to play out, play out and play out some more.

    #2129651
    Tonecraft
    Participant

    “But be sure that it is “work” in the sense that it requires a conscious effort and some serious time. I am not saying do less producing, but definitely do more PR! And try to play out, play out and play out some more.”

    Okay 🙂


    @Scott
    Have a look: http://forum.anjunabeats.com/topic/63756-trance-labels-updated-2013/page-2

    “I think the answer to your question is all over the place. Labels all do different things and take different percentages. I make less than 40% on my latest song per sale, etc. but it’s so worth it. I have no time or interest in marketing, or cold calling people, trying to make connections already made by the labels that have made a name for themselves. If it was an up and comer label, I would definitely not not sign over rights of ownership to them. In fact, even if its a big name label, I say almost always go for exclusive license to administrate (<–that’s the keyphrase) rights of ownership. And put a low limit on it if its a lower label to light a fire under them. Like if they don’t produce 10k for you in 10 years, the license expires.”

    When I asked a question about 3 months back, that’s the answer I got from Lyteside, who is a member of the EDM group Delta-S. I didn’t really understand him then, I just thought that that was the same kind of situation I was in.

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