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  • #2140601
    DJ Vintage
    Moderator

    Well, it obviously matters where the first downbeat marker is. In this case it could be three beats after the actual first downbeat and then the counter would show 14 at what actually is a 1.

    That is why track preparation is so important. Getting the beatgrids right and setting the first downbeats are things that you really need to do with every new track that comes into your collection. It’s necessary if you want to use sync and/or synced FX or samples and what not.

    I suggest you take a random set of tracks in different genres and just start listening to them (outside VDJ) and trying to determine the pattern and beatcount. Best way is to just fast forward a bit and then hit play. The more experienced DJs (especially those that started in the pre-sync, pre-digital era) all are able to determine within a few beats (usually less than a phrase (4 bars, 16 beats) where the first downbeat in a bar is (it sounds different from beat 3) and where in the phrase that downbeat is. Often also if it’s the first or second half of the 8 bar segment you correctly identified.

    Imho it’s an acquired skill. If you count along with all your music 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4 and so on til 8-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, you will eventually start to notice when your count seems “off”, you are surely on beat, might even be on the downbeat. I listen to a few beats in my head and just instinctively (most of the time) know where to start counting 1-2-3-4.

    So, as with most things DJ-ing, practice, practice, practice and don’t rely on the DJ Software to get it right all the time.

    While there are tracks that go outside the “convention”, their number is so small I won’t go into that. By the time you are ready to start messing with those kind of tracks in your mixes, you won’t be needing our advice, probably giving it!

    #2140631

    Rik, there’s nothing wrong with Virtual DJ 8 or any other DJ software one would use…and yes the time signature for the music is 4/4 (as is the case with 99.9 percent of Dance, RnB, Soul/Funk, and Pop music). However, the structure of music has–as you noted–8 bars and then a change happens. Albeit, there are breaks (or bridges) which could be as short or long (in terms of bars) as the artist or producer likes or is needed to give the singer a break (a chance the vocalist to catch his or her breath). That’s why Phil of Digital DJ Tips and DJ TLM of DJTLMtv.com always stress that you or we as DJs must always know our music–and definitely, the structure of the songs we spin or plan to play.

    I use Virtual DJ (exclusively) and while as a beginner one relies on Virtual DJs Computer Beat Grid (CBG), waveform, or sync button (function) to beat match…Phil and DJ TLM strongly suggest one learn how to beat match by ear. Rik, …respecting that you’re a novice just starting out, I humbly suggest you continue to use whatever method that keeps you enjoying DJing. However, as you musicality increases along with you DJ skills, which they will the more you practice, I strong suggest you take to heart Phil’s and DJ TLM’s advice and learn to DJ (beat match) by ear. And most important, continue to listen to the structure and (musical “phrase” changes in the songs you want to mix, which is what your question was about).

    Rik, what I find very helpful is to set cue points in Virtual DJ where I want to start and end my mix of a musical “phrase” mostly likely an “8-bar count” or (14-bars in your case). But, most important, make sure the length of the musical phrases lines up! And that you’ve completed the mix before the vocals start in the new track you’re mixing in (or the one you’re mixing out of) …usually at the end of “the hook” or breakdown/bridge of the song, or instrumental intro and outro—I hope this helps.

    Welcome to the wonderful and enriching club of digital (or vinyl) DJing.

    Respectfully,

    DJ Nivekone a.k.a DJ Nivek1

    P.S. DJ TLM at djtlmtv.com has some very informative video tutorials on counting bars, phrases, song structure, and beat matching…I strongly suggest you check them out–I found them very useful.

    #2140651
    Rixon
    Participant

    Vintage and Nivek1, thanks so much for the advice, it’s really cleared things up for me.

    So really the key to this problem is basically getting to know my music, and setting cue points, at phrases of interest or fade in / fade out points of my songs. At the moment all i have is a few scraps of paper with song names and songs which work and don’t work together, i guess that’s more in the realm harmonic mixing which i don’t think i’m totally ready for.

    Beat matching manually is something i have been trying to work on, as of now i’ve done a couple of hour mixes (very rough around the edges) but i havn’t used the sync button. However doing this just by ear seems like my next step. Or doing things by ear generally (i’ve noticed i tend to stare at the beat count in Virtual Dj too much).

    One thing i did pick up in my previous search for an answer was manually adjusting the bpm using the bpm editor to set the downbeat, is this another ‘cheat’ fix? From the advice you gave it seems this shouldn’t matter if i get my ear right?

    Thanks again for the help though guys, much appreciated!

    #2140711

    Rik, as a fellow VDJ user, I wouldn’t waste my time use VDJs beat editor, I would find the first beat (computer beat grid it) and then trust my ears to mentally count the 8-bar phrases, actually, you can dance to them for practice and hit the Cue Point(s) to see if you got them right. After a couple of times, you will get the hang of correctly counting 8-bar phrases. Then match the BPM by pressing VDJs sync button then off you go. At this stage don’t worthy too much about lyrics clashing or any thing else you main goal is to line up the down beat (the kick drum) and the (snare, or handclap, etc.) … Like this, remember the kick drum happens on beats one (1) and three (3) and the snare or handclap, etc. happens on beats two (2) and four (4) and then it repeats. Try this, tap you foot on the down beats (one and three) and snap your fingers on the upbeats (two and four) as you’re bobbing you head to the music…start with songs that have a BPM between 96 BPMs and a 100 BPMs and slowly work your way up or down until it becomes second nature. Which it already is because you can dance to the music without thinking about…and instinctly know when the musical phrase (8-bars) change will happen! Just do over think things Rik. Most important, have fun and dance while you’re mixing and you will be amazed at how fast you start beat matching songs.

    Most important…don’t worry about beat matching solely by ear…just use VDJs sync button to get the BPMs the same, and use VDJs computer beat grid (CBG) to align the downbeat (one) of each song. Remember the thick square of the CBG must be under the downbeat of one {1} (preferably) of the 8-bar phrases but at this time it’s not necessary for you to practice what I described above. Start your mix on the “one” (of 1-2-3-4) in time with the “one” on the song playing then concentrate making sure you match the upbeats of two {2} and four {4} if it will help turndown the “Low” (knob) on the track you’re mixing (bringing) in so that you can concentrate on matching beats two and four…. Do this through the speakers without the headphones.

    Peace out

    DJ Nivekone a.k.a DJ Nivek1ast you start beat matching songs.

    #2141471
    Rixon
    Participant

    Thanks Nivek1!

    This has been really helpful, i appreciate the tips! I’m off to practice practice practice!

    Watch this space 🙂

    Rik

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