Small PA Mixer Recommendations Needed

Hi BigSyd,

Quite a few questions. Let me try tackling them in chronological order.

I can see why the 502 doesn’t fit your needs. Only 1 mic input for one. Unbalanced (TS – not TSR) Jack master out. I am still a bit in awe of people having a nice S4 controller (quite an investment) and a good heavy duty set of active speakers and then decide to spend no more than 4o-50 bucks on a mixer that ALL their sound has to go through. Mixer are quite a bit like PA’s, you get what you pay for. And I can safely say that having such a very low end mixer in your sound line does nothing to enhance the quality of your PA (rather the opposite). And what the heck is a “British EQ”???

My point is you might want to rethink your strategy and budget for your next mixer a bit. Yamaha has the MG-series. Awesome price/performance ratio. You should look at the MG102C. It has 4 true mic channels, two of which have compression on board. Balanced outputs (of course) in TSR. Both channel 7/8 and 9/10 are geared towards line level stereo inputs (your S4 on one, iPad/iPod on the other) and you can even abuse the 2TR input if you want to hook up an extra MP3 player or something. Recording outputs of course to get those great performances on tape. The quality of the mic preamps is great (in it’s price range) and so is it’s overall sound. Only drawback for you might be that there are no faders, just rotary level knobs. Keeps the footprint down though and it doesn’t sound like you’d be “fader-riding” this thing all night anyway.

Price is around 130 euro’s, so I am guessing about 175-180 dollars. There is lots of stuff around in the 100-150 dollar range, but not a whole lot I’d recommend. Lot of pro sound guys will travel with a Yamaha MG board if they need something light and portable. That is for a reason. And I’d dump the Behringer while it is still new and you might get a few bucks for it.

Active sub(s). Not sure if you are contemplating the Mackie SRM1801 to go with the Thumps, but if you are, they come with built in crossover. Hooking up both your master channels to the SRM1801 and then run high pass signal to both your Thumps. Most active subs from respectable brands will have a similar way to connect things. Look out for it, because if it has a built-in crossover at least you know it is tuned right for the sub and you don’t have to spend extra money on a seperate one. And it is one less piece of kit to haul around.

Hope this helps.

Good luck and greetinx,
C.

You are welcome.

TS vs TSR. Pretty simple really. To have a balanced output/input, you need to be able to carry two signals and the ground/shield. In order for that to happen you need three connecting points on your plug. Tip has the “hot” (+) connection, the Ring has the “cold” (-) connection and the Sleeve the ground/shield. Hence T(ip)S(leeve)R(ing).

Unbalanced only uses one lead for signal and the other for ground/shield. Tip takes signal, Sleeve takes ground/shield. Ergo T(ip)S(leeve). The TS thus misses the extra ring.

It is impossible to have a balanced connection with only two leads. You can stick an unbalanced cable in a balanced output/input but it will behave as unbalanced still. The opposite is true too, if you stick a balanced cable into an unbalanced output/input it will also behave as unbalanced.

XLR is pretty much always balanced. Jack depends on what the connector is for and what the design spec was (like Behringer saved money by putting in unbalanced outs). RCA is always unbalanced.

With one 18″ sub to go with your 15″ top ends, you should be doing pretty well. And might actually find that you don’t really need a second sub. Because everything below 125Hz goes into the sub, this frees up soo much power in the Thumps for low mid and mid that they too will sparkle more. The lower the frequency the more power you need to get a decent sound level. Imagine your Thumps suddenly not having to worry about all that power for the 50-125Hz bit of the music (where all the oomph is).

Once again good luck & greetinx,
C.

Hey Big Syd,

That is dirt cheap 🙂 … the price in euro’s I gave you comes from the cheapest address here. Life’s not fair! LOL

Might want to take a look at this review (there are more, just google): http://en.audiofanzine.com/analog-mixer/yamaha/mg-c-series-mg102c/user_reviews/r.107758.html

The overall consensus is that is lightweight, compact and very versatile, while offering great sound quality (again, within it’s price range). I think it said in the review “not the best mixer in the world, but definitely the best mixer in it’t price range).

It’s been around since 2009 I think and there is a newer, slightly more expensive 8-channel version that has one digital FX channel. But with what you are doing I’d rather have the extra stereo channel. The good thing with analogue equipment like this is that it doesn’t age like digital. A 3 year old controller is considered almost ancient today. An analogue PA mixer can be 10 years old and the design still sold.

Good luck with your choice and the manual & greetinx,
C.

Hey!

Yeah, still pretty cheap :-), still not fair LOL.

Space is definitely an issue on small mixers and since you lose absolutely nothing when using balanced (TRS) Jack plugs versus XLR (the only thing is that XLRs have a locking mechanism, but I have never lost a big 6.3mm Jack because it “accidentally” came lose. Quality of signal, signal strength, mechanical connection are all as good as with XLR. And it is just as balanced. So if you have TRS Jacks outputs on you controller, use Jack-Jack (make sure both sides are TRS of course). If you have XLR outputs, just get a set of “stereo” (TSR) Jack to XLR female cables. Be sure that you get balanced cables in the latter case especially. Shorter microphone cables come with a female XLR connector to a TS Jack in many cases and are thus not balanced.

I am sure you’ll be happy playing with the sub added for a bigger room and/or a bigger boom.

Greetinx,
C.

Pretty hard to confuse me, “many have tried in vain” LOL.

Glad to hear you like the mixer. Let’s see about your questions.

I have to say I didn’t pay TOO much attention to the inputs. Besides I have worked with a MG166CX for a long time and it has balanced TSR on more channels (obviously because it is a 16-channel mixer :)). Having said that, when I hook up my stuff like CD(J) players or something, I’ll use RCA leads 9 out of 10 times. I will have the CD player sit very close to the mixer and a 4-5 ft RCA lead (of good quality) will do the trick. Never had a problem. Don’t forget that most line sources, including keyboards, CD players and many lower end DJ mixers don’t even have balanced outputs.

Here is the thing about balanced vs unbalanced.

Balanced cables were “invented” for microphone signals. A typical microphone is somewhere around -30dBu. This is a voltage of 0,010Volt (or 10mV = milliVolt). Let’s say it picks up a 5mV noise along the way (killers in a venue setting are lighting systems (dimmer packs!)). At the end of the cable (forgetting cable resistance and resulting signal loss for a moment) you will have a 15mV signal with a sound to noise ration of 1:2. A 15mV signal needs to be amplified a lot by the mic preamp to a suitable level (0dB) to pass through to the main outputs. But, since you start with a 1:2 ratio that is what you have at 0dB too! A very audible noise on your signal.

Now imagine running the same cable but using a line level signal. This is +4dBu on professional gear. And translates, roughly, to 1.25V or 1,250mV. A whopping 125 times higher than a mic signal. Introduce the same 5mV noise picked up along the way. What arrives at your mixer is a 1,255mV signal that needs no further amplification (as it already is where it is supposed to be) with a sound to noise ratio of 1:250. Chances are that there isn’t a problem with that.

On your master outs you want balanced going into your amps for several reasons that are beyond the scope of this story. Here hum for example is a much bigger problem than signal deterioration.

So, if you have short cable lengths (as in your situation) going from your S4 into your mixer, I would feel very comfortable suggesting using the cables I advised last time (the balanced ones) from XLR to TRS and use them to plug in on the stereo channel TS plugs. In about 95% of the cases this will work noise-free and keeps your mic channels free for mics. Even hooking the S4 up with a good quality 6ft RCA-RCA cable to the 7/8 or 9/10 channels is feasible. The only drawback here is that your S4 outputs +4dBu , as far as I was able to find out, and RCA inputs are rated for -10dBu (which is the typical output level of things like mp3 players, iPad and such). And since those channels don’t have an input gain (like 1-6), you will be coming in very “hot”. Rather use the jacks :).
You could get a couple of extra XLR to TS cables if that makes you feel more comfortable.

In the rare case that you get problems and depending on how many mics you’d need, you could use channel 1 and 2 for Left and Right outputs from your S4 (remember XLR to TSR, don’t go XLR into XLR because of the preamp) and still have channels 3 and 4 left for two mics and channels 5 thru 10 for additional sources like the iPad/MP3 player/CD player. If you want to free up a third mic channel, you could indeed set the S4 to mono and run one XLR to TRS lead to channel 1 or 2 on your mixer and use the other for your third (or 4th counting the input on your S4) mic.

There are hordes of DJs hooking up their gear with (often inferior) RCA cables of 10 ft or more that have no problems (other than perhaps running “hot”), so I wouldn’t worry too much running your balanced XLRs into your TS mixer inputs. Plug it in, see what happens and know what alternative route you could take. You have plenty of options with this mixer which is a good thing.

I prefer using stereo channels when I can, only have one fader or level knob to contend with instead of two :).

Just stay away from any dimmer packs.

Hope that helps & greetinx,
C.

BigSyd, post: 40335, member: 3965 wrote: This all made senses after drinking a hot cup of coffee! lol

That is what they invented the stuff for right?!

Actually, the S4 uses TRS for its Balanced Output (They also have RCA for UnBalanced Out as well). For my weekly gig, I really don’t need a Mic plugged into the mixer. So, I will run the S4 in MONO mode into CH1 or CH2 on the mixer to keep the Connection Balanced. Or, whenever I want to run in Stereo I will use CH3&4 or CH5&6 (So I can use the GAIN Control) using my TRS Out on S4 into the TS on these Channels (It just wont be Balanced anymore right?). Or as you suggested, I can just run the RCA into the Mixer on CH7&8 or CH9&10.

Hey, just clearing up a few things:

• I understand that the S4 has TRS balanced outputs and suggest you use those
• Don’t use the RCA’s into the RCA inputs of the Yamaha. They are set for -10dBu input (great for iPod, iPad, and MP3 players). Your S4 sends out +4dBu. There is not input gain control on channels 7-8 and 9-10, so you can’t bring it down. Better to use the TS jacks from your S4 TSR jacks even on 7-8 and 9-10.
• You CAN run the mono signal into the line jacks on any channel, but yes, you’d only have balanced on 1 and 2. Again, as Terry confirmed, don’t worry about that with less than 1 meter from each other.
• Don’t worry about their not being able to control gain on channel 7/8 and 9/10 as long as you use the Jacks, they are set for +4dB. You should see that 0dB master out on the S4 will probably be very close to 0dB input on the yamaha.

The last thing that I keep questioning is Stereo vs Mono. I’ve read people prefer one or the other for different reasons. I’m thinking Stereo really only makes sense if both of my speakers are playing out to the same direction and they are parallel to each other. At the Bar I play at, I have one speaker near me and the other one is out closer to the dining area. So, I’ve been playing out in MONO in this location. Would you say that’s the right thing to do?

Many venues run mono systems. As you correctly observed, stereo only works well if there is a clear front and left/right for the crowd (like at a live concert, where everyone looks towards the stage). Mono often is easier on the acoustics too. So what you are doing in the place you play sounds just right.

Good luck,
C.

Chuck van Eekelen, post: 40239, member: 2756 wrote: Hey Big Syd,

That is dirt cheap 🙂 … the price in euro’s I gave you comes from the cheapest address here. Life’s not fair! LOL

Might want to take a look at this review (there are more, just google): http://en.audiofanzine.com/analog-mixer/yamaha/mg-c-series-mg102c/user_reviews/r.107758.html

The overall consensus is that is lightweight, compact and very versatile, while offering great sound quality (again, within it’s price range). I think it said in the review “not the best mixer in the world, but definitely the best mixer in it’t price range).

It’s been around since 2009 I think and there is a newer, slightly more expensive 8-channel version that has one digital FX channel. But with what you are doing I’d rather have the extra stereo channel. The good thing with analogue equipment like this is that it doesn’t age like digital. A 3 year old controller is considered almost ancient today. An analogue PA mixer can be 10 years old and the design still sold.

Good luck with your choice and the manual & greetinx,
C.

US… -.- I hate it. The biggest differece i found once was: Numark Mixdeck Quad: 650$ in US and 1000 euros in EU