What's with all this clipping?
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- This topic has 18 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 5 months ago by
Jason Nankoo.
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September 18, 2014 at 3:10 pm #2059752
deathy
ParticipantThis is a (bad) audio engineering practice where you use a volume boost, then a compressor with a limiter. This causes a much higher volume level without clipping, but you lose a lot of the sound quality – the common term for this is the “loudness war.” As a producer, I do not like this – I would rather have high quality sound.
Vinyl doesn’t work the same, because it’s analog which means it can go over 0dB, which is one of the big things that folks are talking about when they say vinyl sounds better.
September 18, 2014 at 3:13 pm #2059762deathy
ParticipantRecord of Loudness War @ Wikipedia
September 19, 2014 at 9:43 pm #2060241Jason Nankoo
ParticipantInteresting article, explains the very thick looking waveforms. I’ve read that a programs like Platinum Notes can fix this compression issue.
Does seem absurd, why lose quality just to be loud ?
September 20, 2014 at 9:12 am #2060441deathy
ParticipantBusiness, at least until recently. It’s a common way for your music to stand out from the crowd was to be loud, since it has been shown quite clearly that the average person does respond favorably to loud, and if you are the loudest track played in a group on the radio, your track is what gets remembered. If it sells more units, then crank that knob up to 11. (I don’t agree with this mentality, of course.)
However, now that we’re all using personal media devices that can normalize the volume levels of all your tracks, hopefully we’ll see a shift toward higher quality sound being what sells the track – if they are all the same volume, then the battlefield will change. That said, places like YouTube, Soundcloud, etc., are not normalizing all tracks to the same volume (yet, hopefully), so it will still be a way to stand out there.
September 20, 2014 at 5:01 pm #2060491Jason Nankoo
ParticipantDue to this compression issue, would you say its best to record tunes from vinyl to digital (where possible) rather than rip CD’s or is that unnecessary ?
September 20, 2014 at 5:03 pm #2060511deathy
ParticipantI personally would do that, yeah. Seems like you’d get higher quality audio that way. Of course, it depends on the state of the vinyl, since you my get extra artifacts from that.
September 20, 2014 at 5:04 pm #2060521deathy
ParticipantI’d probably only bother where the digital version is participating in the loudness wars, though.
September 20, 2014 at 8:08 pm #2060581Marco Solo
ParticipantAs a sidenote: no, Platinum Notes will NOT fix this. When you’ve limited the dynamic range, there’s no way back. Buying vinyl and then ripping to mp3 is not worth it in my opinion. Even if the dynamic range is better.
September 20, 2014 at 8:49 pm #2060591deathy
ParticipantBut if you already own the vinyl, which was the position the OP was starting from, then it seems worth it to me.
September 20, 2014 at 10:30 pm #2060601Jason Nankoo
ParticipantWell most of the music I have on vinyl from the 1990’s is not even available on CD or digital !
So I had to digitize them, but I may PERHAPS still buy stuff on vinyl depending on what the digital file version is like.
I’m no audiophile, I’m one of those individuals who can’t tell the difference between a WAV and a 320kbps MP3. But I think how the original file starts off is important.
As Phil would say, a well mastered MP3 will sound better than a WAV file that is not.I know Platinum Notes has an expander but I do agree with Marco that trying to get the original dynamic range back is pretty pointless if this is anything to go by …
September 20, 2014 at 10:30 pm #2060611September 21, 2014 at 12:05 am #2060621deathy
ParticipantAudiophiles can’t tell the difference between a WAV and a 320Kbps in a blind test.
September 23, 2014 at 10:37 pm #2061791Jason Nankoo
ParticipantThe lossless vs lossy debate seems minor in comparison to this issue
I have been using Platinum Notes 4 and as far as I can tell its possible to improve the dynamics of a track at least to some degree, which is better than nothing. On the default template setting it has thinned out slightly a number of tracks with very thick waveforms.
Also I have an album both on CD and in digital, similar to what I said in the first post the CD rip’s waveforms are spread out whereas the digital version’s waveforms are slimmer but with clipping.
It seems from this, the digital version is better as the waveforms haven’t been messed around with as much and you just normalize them to get rid of the clipping.As a general rule it may be best to get a digital version of a tune(s) rather than the CD one.
September 24, 2014 at 10:27 pm #2062851Jason Nankoo
ParticipantI laughed when I read the conversation below. A mastering engineer shocks an audiophile when he tells them the original source for the analog vinyl they praise.
“The depth, the detail, the microdynamics are beyond compare, it’s just more proof of the superiority of analog”
“But it was cut from a 16 bit digtial source.”
“Impossible.”
“I was at the session.”
“Don’t you tell me what I’m hearing!”
“Uh, I gotta get back to work…….”
From here https://www.gearslutz.com/board/5511973-post15.html
September 24, 2014 at 11:03 pm #2062871DJ Vintage
ModeratorI just dropped in and -admittedly – haven’t read the OP in detail, nor all replies.
Still, I have something to say about the OP. Somewhere you say you ripped your vinyls to digital. You then say you normalized your tracks, because clipping can cause distortion. Which is true by the way, clipping = distortion. Regardless of how audible it is (depending on many other factors) a clipped sound is effectively a block wave and that is no fun for any speaker (or ear for that matter).
However, all normalize does (especially in the lesser software like audacity) is adjusting volume so that average and peak are within specified limits. Other software (like Platinum Notes) use more sophisticated methods to normalize. Some software does destructive normalisation (i.e. it changes the actual sound) other non-destructive (typically what happens when you use normalize in DJ software) where it just adds a dB value in the gain correction field of the MP3 tags.
Normalized tracks are all “equally” loud. This means you’ll never be caught by surprise by a louder track (in real dB terms) if you forgot to gain the track while cueing it up. However normalisation does NOT do anything about the compression (as mentioned in an earlier reply). So, even two normalized tracks can sound different as far as loudness is concerned. Both WON’T clip (assuming you follow the golden “0dB Rulez-rule “throughout the signal path) and thus have no distortion.
A clipped track that you normalise, will sound just as distorted as a non-normalised track that is clipped, just at a lower volume!
The trick here is to have your base material unclipped. If you rip your own vinyl (CD’s is less of a problem because usually you don’t have to worry about levels in the digital to digital realm) or other analogue sources, it is so important to make sure there is enough headroom (i.e. don’t have the recording get close to maximum but keep a healthy margin). Once you have the digital track you could “re-master” the track by running some EQ (usually wise after a vinyl rip), maybe to tick/scratch/noise reduction (careful here) and probably some compression. I am not talking about loudness war levels, but just to make it fit in a bit better with the rest of your material.
A final note on expanders. They do work. So I don’t agree with Marco on compression being irreversible. Unlike compression (from WAV to lossy, not the audio kind) where materials is actually thrown away, audio compression is a mathematical trick. And because of that it can be reversed (to some extend). So with a good expander you do the exact opposite of compression. You make the less loud part less loud and you leave the loudest parts be. Result: the gap between low volume bits and loud bits becomes bigger and presto! bigger dynamic range. The big issue here is that you usually don’t know the original settings of the compression. If you knew those, you could actually get very close to the way the track sounded before compression, but that doesn’t happen much. So you’ll have to depend on your ears, use the most commonly used compression settings to set your expander, etx. It’s not optimal, but it is possible.
Just my two cents.
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